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"They are insulting women, who are
afraid to go to work…" The
first roundtable between Kuchma, Yushchenko and Yanukovych during the
revolution. Made public for the first time.
Ukrains'ka pravda, 3 March 2005
[translated by Olga Bogatyrenko for UKL]
http://www2.pravda.com.ua/archive/2005/march/3/3.shtml
The Speaker of the Supreme Rada Volodymyr Lytvyn did something useful
- he issued a CD with the materials about the presidential election and
the Orange Revolution. Among the texts of
directives and minutes of speeches,
there are three unique documents. These
are records of shorthand-written
minutes of the roundtable between Kuchma, Yushchenko and Yanukovych,
which took place in the Marinskiy Palace
in the presence of international
mediators.
The texts, which are published for the first time, shed some light on
the negotiations that took place during
the revolution. There are minutes
of all the three roundtable discussions on the CD. Frankly, the first
one is of the worst quality. In fact, it
is only a fragment. Lytvyn explained
that they thought that the roundtables
would be taking place in Kuchma's
residence in Koncha-Zaspa, and that is
why not everything was recorded.
"
Ukrainska Pravda" is presenting the
text from the CD "Volodymyr
Lytvyn. Ukraine 2004: Events. Documents. Facts." The producer of
the CD is also the Speaker of the Parliament.
26 November 2004
[UKL: except for one intervention by Kuchma, the dialogue took place
in Russian]
>
From the audience: The procedures should
be transparent>From the audience:
It should definitely correspond to the legal framework, but I believe
that whatever we write won't have any ...
...snip...
> ... Otherwise we are working under the circumstances when one of the
parties has an advantage of force and ability to put pressure.
Yushchenko: Excuse me, but first one of the
sides suggested a phony solution.
Of course you know better, being in
Moscow. Yet, I, being in Kyiv, don't
consider it a solution. Being allowed to
vote is not putting pressure.
Dialogue in the audience
Lytvyn: We need to make note of the fact
that the parties, working groups,
are starting to work and negotiate
immediately and that they are keeping
in mind the fact that the Supreme Court
of Ukraine is not making an official
announcement now, and will make a formal announcement by the 29th by
11 o'clock. That is, apparently, the Supreme Court has made a decision
to make a final decision by then.
> From the Audience: Vladimir
Mikhailovich, today it [the Supreme Court]
has made a different decision, and there is no exact date stipulated
there…
Lytvyn: It would be best to start negotiations immediately. Seven days.
According to the Law on the Elections - seven days.
>
From the audience: The parties hope that
the Supreme Court will show…Also
there is something about the Supreme
Court and the fact that the parties
hope that the Supreme Court will be
transparent, the parties hope…People,
it's us who hope!
Lytvyn: If we are talking about the Court, I think, we can hope that
the politicians and the parties will find
a basis for a compromise today,
it is possible.
The Polish Group: What do you have? Different branches - everybody has
different branches [of the government], it is transparency that is the
key part of what makes a democracy.
First, it is not true that such democracy - is only about what we need
to do, and it doesn't concern the Court,
they too must work transparently
for the people, and there are no disagreements in this regard.
Second, let me tell you based on the Polish experience, all the judges
also want to be on TV. And not just those politicians that are on the
stage, it is wrong.
Lytvyn: Today, I read a conversation in the Court about the fact that
I have received a letter addressed to me
asking to provide for the security
of the members of the Supreme Court. I
met with them, and talked to them
about what they require in terms of security.
I called him and said that I had a letter, a request from a deputy. What
can I do about it?
It made the Chair of the Supreme court quite angry, he said: "I
am disconnecting all the phones, so that nobody demanded anything, we
have done anything in our power."
I am trying to explain to him that there is a letter, and, God forbid,
something happens along the lines of what the letter is talking about,
they would say that it was me who had all the information. I did follow
up on the letter. I received it from the
deputies, it was a request from
the deputies, and I had to do something about it.
Question: Who is the letter from?
Lytvyn: From the deputies. Regarding the fact that the members of the
Supreme Court need to be assured of their
security. From the deputies.
Kuchma: The parties are expecting an objective…
Question: I am hoping that the procedures will be transparent and made
public by the mass media. Please.
> From the audience:
-There exist court/legal rules.
-Whether it is taken note of or not, I want to emphasize once again that
there are many experts who have been invited and who are working in the
country, we are ready so that they, if
they will be issued such an invitation,
participate as observers or in some other function to monitor all the
procedures and measures stipulated by the
Supreme Court, or so that they
could participate as a part of different
groups that consider other issues.
I just wanted to emphasize it.
> From the audience: The conditions of transparency and glasnost.
Kuchma: The parties only want an open and a transparent process. The
conditions of glasnost and transparency,
consideration of the complaints
- what should we call them -
"skarhi" [a Ukrainian word: petty
objections/protests]… These are "skarhi"..
> From the audience:
-There always needs to be
objectivity… Glasnost and
openness…
-We are hoping that the Court is always just and objective.
-There may be different complaints. No, there are only complaints and
appeals regarding the Presidential election.
-All right.
Kuchma: Regarding the Presidential
election. I am appealing to you….
Ivanovych. Are you the key mediator?
> From the audience: Yes. Yes. There are four of us.
Kuchma: Four is too many. I am thinking, first, we need to speak one
to one. Yet, four is a minimum. There is no…. process. No, we do
not need radio coverage. Who, are you saying, do you want to bring in
from the supporters of Viktor Andreevych?
I am reading once again. No headings, nothing.
Yushchenko: So, do we hold on to the heading?
Kuchma: No, no heading. We have agreed on that….
Yushchenko: The part presenting the facts and the reasons. Why are we
doing this? [I.e., what is the purpose of our meeting?]
Kuchma [speaking in Ukrainian]: This is regarding the political crisis
in Ukraine. We keep the heading. The parties can, having signed these
statements…, the signing of this joint statement with the goal
of peaceful resolution of the political
crisis in Ukraine, cased…,
the violation is,…statement… The joint statement about the
regulation of the political crisis in
Ukraine. The parties are absolutely
against any use of force, which may cause the escalation of conflict
and blood shed. The parties are announcing the start of the political
negotiation seeking peaceful resolution
of the political crisis in Ukraine
conducted between Leonid Kuchma, Yushchenko Viktor, Viktor Yanukovych,
Volodymyr Lytvyn.
The parties have expressed gratitude to
the representatives of the European
Union, the OSCE, the Russian Federation
for their willingness to participate…
Let us do this, I will do it. I will now
and I will later act as a mediator
in the process of negotiations.
The parties have reached an agreement
regarding the creation of the working
group on arriving at joint efforts at the regulation of the political
process. The working group is to start
its work immediately. The parties
are expecting the Supreme Court to be
open and transparent while considering
complaints and appeals regarding the Presidential election.
Yushchenko: Regarding the appeals that have to do with the Presidential
Election. Everything else can be less formal or less objective.
Noise in the audience.
Kuchma: To maintain order and to stop… Here is the only thing,
I want to ask a question. So, we need to
stop the blockade of the Cabinet
of Ministers, the Supreme Soviet and the
Administration of the President.
Personally I can stay at home and not go to work at all.
Noise in the audience.
Yushchenko: Ok… let us… I am
asking, we are keeping the blockades,
we are not discussing the blockade and the normal functioning…Ok.
This, this is a different issue.
Yanukovych: This is an instrument of
pressure. Secondly, women are being
insulted, women are afraid to go to work. I am not making anything up.
You have a special place/space allocated
to you. The place that is allocated
to us is far, in the suburbs. We are against. Let people demonstrate
and protest, let this whole process goes on. Just take people away from
state buildings and government institutions, where there is pressure
on people…
Noise in the audience.
Yushchenko: There have been no orders originating from my headquarters
regarding occupation of government institutions. We all understand that
this would be a losing strategy. It makes no sense to occupy and take
over the building of the government. It
makes no sense, Viktor Fedorovych,
everything stays, and that would be a
scenario for other times and different
circumstances. Just because it would be of no advantage to the people
out there, in the Maidan. That is why I
speak there twice a day and that
is why I am telling them: do not approach the doors, organize and do
whatever you want, you are free people, you can demonstrate and tell
the Prime Minister what you want from him - it is your right to do it,
it is your right not to stand by the
railways station but by the building
of the government and to demonstrate your
opinion about different issues,
it is your right according to the Declaration of Human Rights. It is
your right, yet, it is not your right to interfere with and to block
the work - it is not your right. This is the principle, according to
which…
Yanukovych: Well, you know quite well
that it is not so, Viktor Andreevych.
People will be people, emotions will be emotions. Women are going to
work, they approach
the building, turn around and leave, and they are
being whistled to. You do understand
that this is the time for budget preparations, it is the end of the year, the
Ministry of Economy, the Ministry of
Finance… It is a matter of the country's
welfare and survival.
Yushchenko: I want you to understand one thing -
a terrible crime has taken place
in this country…
Kuchma: The two of you stay…
Yushchenko: Leonid Danilovych, let me speak. Mr. President…
Debate.
Yushchenko: It is really hard to work with the President. I am telling that to
the President: it is very difficult to work with him…
Kuchma: Viktor, I think that it is necessary to
tell the people that they should
not interfere with… they should not blockade, you need to tell them.
Yushchenko: I am going to the evening…
Kuchma: If only…
Yushchenko: Leonid Danilovych, I promise you,
after we finish this conversation,
I am going to the Maidan, I am going to the Maidan and I will say: "There
must be no blockading". That's it, Viktor
Fedorovych, this would be a correct
thing to do, the rest… the rest is…
Debate
Yanukovych: I have told you, that I will appeal to people and say: "I am
asking you, go home, return to work, do not threaten, miners need to mine. Go
home to your families, we will have a legitimate legal process, we will take
the issue to the negotiations table, and then all the turmoil in the regions
will disappear after that". Yes, all the
turmoil in the region will disappear,
in the East, in the South, and everything that unfolded will disappear when we
calm the people down and tell them to calm down, that everything will be taken
care of, so you can just live your lives.
Yushchenko: Do not take the wrong path, telling the people to leave is a fake
solution. You can tell your five thousand people to leave. If you wish to come
to the protest, I will tell them, that you will
be coming. But you need to behave
responsibly and realize that these people cannot be commanded so easily. If we
came out and said: "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have reached an agreement,
we will take another two-three days, we know how to resolve the situation, we
need to take another day to negotiate, and then
we are ready to agree on a solution".
No matter if the deal with be a broad or a specific package deal, basically,
Viktor Fedorovych, there is only one problem -
and that is that we see one outcome
of the election, Russia sees another outcome,
others have yet another view. That's
Ukraine: half of the people do not agree with the results, or 1/3-2/3 do not
agree. As for me, in 17 regions, Viktor Fedorovych… no, not half, Viktor
Stepanovych, you are well aware of that, not
half. Yet, there is a "fake" majority,
a "fake" one. These are all different things. Viktor Fedorovych, the
key issue is our… Yours and Mine, understanding of the results.
Yanukovych: Viktor Andreevych, listen. We have
negotiated on a number of occasions.
The problem is this: it seems that on a number of occasions we would agree on
something today and then it would change tomorrow…
Yushchenko:…
Yanukovych: Viktor Andreevych, I want
objectivity, nothing else. I want transparency,
I want honesty, do you understand? As the saying goes, it's not just that this
is what I am saying. I am right. Let us talk, and may be after we talk, I will
agree with you and I will apologize to you. May be. But I need to be convinced.
Trust me, I do not see any depth/any specificity in what you are talking about.
If you are specific and concrete, if we see that there are concrete facts and
evidence -then, definitely, no questions. You do know, I have always had enough
courage in life.
>
From the audience: … through the concrete wall of the airport with the
help of a KAMAZ… (everybody talking at the same time). I ...
...snip...
>... snow because the building [apparently, the reference is to the building
where
the people were to cast their votes] was closed.
Yanukovych: Where was it?
>From the audience: It was in the Rivne
region. Vladimirsk, a regional center.
I was standing in the wet snow, me and other people, because the building was
closed.
Yanukovych: Ivan Stepanovych, listen to me. Not
in a single region have I… If
you prove that at least one region…I promise you that if you prove that
I gave orders in at least in a single region, or that I gave orders to my team
to block somebody somewhere, or to do something bad to Viktor Andreevych or to
anybody else…
>From the audience: (unclear)
Yanukovych: Listen to me. People are people, do you understand? I am telling
you once again, if it were me, for example, I would be committing a great sin
if I said "You are…" What? God
forbid! Sitting down and starting
to talk things over would be the right thing to do…
>From the audience: (unclear)
Yanukovych: Viktor Andreevich, Viktor Andreevich…
To be continued
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